Curse

Fenix Swiftblade · Mar 09, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

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Originally Posted by Minus Sign

EDIT: but also keep in mind, its 1.98 for 1 source of recharge to two characters. P&H is very rigid in the end, giving .99pip per character as opposed to near twice that if monks self manage

Right, it isn't as much. My point is that it makes up for this by giving the other monks free elite slots. You get your energy management, if it isn't quite as much, AND you get your elite for something besides energy.

I'm certainly not saying it's the best energy management skill out there, far from it. I'm only saying that it is another option, and should be presented in the table here.

Minus Sign · Mar 09, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

And I disagree. remember, this thread is about viable energy solutions we have now, not those that will be viable when Anet decides to un-nerf them. P&H still has too much cost/issues/ifs, ands, and buts to make it useful in groups...yet. When Anet does un-nerf it, you're darn right it should be up there with the rest. Right now? Its not ready.

Ensign · Mar 09, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

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Originally Posted by Fenix

0.99 pips versus the 1.57 or 1.71 of EDrain or OoB(adjusted)?

Assuming 14 Divine Favor and an enchanting part, Peace and Harmony is .85 pips. For your elite slot that's a pretty good description of complete trash.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

The things that I think save the skill from being complete trash are that it's linked to Divine Favor, which as a monk you'll have anyway, and that it can be cast on others.

You aren't neccessarily going to have Divine Favor anyway, particularly if you're a healer and don't benefit tremendously from it. The efficiency does continue to drop if you don't have a high Divine Favor spec (at 10 Divine Favor it drops to .82 pips with an enchanting part).

Maintaining the spell on multiple people is where the value of Peace and Harmony is, but remember that if you're doing that you aren't getting a tremendous benefit out of it yourself. At 14 DF you're netting 2.56 pips out of Peace and Harmony if you maintain it on an entire 3 monk backline, but the caster is only getting .56 pips for himself.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

Also, the other monks in your party can be free to choose non-energy management elite skills.

I don't think so. A pip from Peace and Harmony is on the equivilent of a non-elite emanagement skill. It'd be a nice supplement alongside some other non-elite choices, or something that'd help with an efficiency elite like Word, but if you have booners on your team a Peace and Harmony is not going to be sufficient to keep them running. Hell a single Energy Drain isn't enough to keep a booner happy, he needs another energy skill as well.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

The energy management provided by PnH isn't the main reason why it's never used, it's the difficulty in using it well. If it couldn't be removed, or had a very fast recharge, I think it would see quite a lot of play.

That's not a difficult skill to use well. A skill that's hard to use well is Gale, or Blackout. Something that requires good field awareness and excellent timing to be effective, that's difficult to use well. Peace and Harmony? It's brainless to use (which is why n00bs like it to maintain on themselves), but inflexible and fragile. It absolutely needs to be maintained on an entire 3 monk backline to be effective, and its efficiency gets destroyed by removal. I really don't know why the recharge is as long as it is, given how fragile the marginal effectiveness of the skill is already.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

Roughly 3 Energy Pips from one skill thats very difficult to use. The only question is, Is "very difficult" actually "immpossible".

It's 2.5 pips, roughly, and yes, against all but the most unprepared and retarded teams it is impossible to get that entire benefit.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

Right, thats exactly what I was saying. The effects of PnH are really good, but the ability to keep those effects going is really bad. If you can come up with a way to keep PnH going 90% of the time it will be worth it.

Nah, the effect of Peace and Harmony is forgettable, and it's fragile. It needs at least 200% uptime to even be worth looking at, at I'd want around 300% uptime before I'd seriously consider running it. 90% uptime Peace and Harmony is outclassed by virtually every non-elite energy management skill in the game, let alone the elite ones.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

I think that ANet should just bring the recharge down to 5 seconds. Theres already a restriction on how many people you can cast it on based on the attacking/damaging/targeting restrictions, so thats not a problem, and the duration vs recharge isn't restricting as it is.

Yeah, dropping the recharge down that low still wouldn't make the skill good but it'd at least make it marginally interesting. The thing to remember is that if you're recasting Peace and Harmony the skill is awful energy management. But if the recast is low you could at least force it onto other characters even if you wouldn't benefit from it yourself. Say, a bonder with Blessed Signet could force Peace and Harmony onto the other two monks in a 3-backline even if he'd very likely get no benefit out of it himself.

It'd probably see play in some gimmick Hall of Heroes grief build with 7-8 monks, too. Maybe they'd have to balance the recharge against that.

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Originally Posted by Fenix

The only thing I didn't think of when saying the 5 seconds would work is that the recharge on enchantment removal spells is high, effectively making it basically immune to enchant removal. I think 15 would be a good balance.

Even on a 5 second recharge Peace and Harmony has its efficiency destroyed by a single Drain Enchantment, since each recast still costs 5 energy to put back up. It'd be enough that the caster of Peace and Harmony wouldn't see much, if any benefit from the enchantment at all in the face of removal, at least in a 3-backline. I don't think that being immune to enchant removal is something that's particularly dangerous, given the marginal effect of the spell already.

Again the danger of a really short recharge is some gimmick Hall griefing build with a ton of monks where this skill could go nuts. If you're really afraid of that set the recharge to 10-15s, it wouldn't hurt the 'normal' use of the skill at all really. If you're not, you could take the recharge off entirely and it wouldn't have much effect - other than making it a great cover enchantment if that's what you're into.

Peace,
-CxE

Maxiemonster · Mar 09, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Energy Drain is pretty nice too, but I don't plan on using this, since I just sold a Cane that's perfect for Energy Drain, and I don't want to feel sorry xD

P&H isn't worth it when running 2 Monks. If an 8 man team is running 3 Monk though, 1 with P&H, and 2 with MoR, it's quite possible. The MoR Monks just get P&H, and cover it with MoR, but since the recharge times are so different, this'll be hard to time.

OOB is just hopeless, which is a shame, I loved that skill!

MoR or Energy Drain.. Not sure. Energy Drain also works well with Skill recharge, MoR doesn't. Energy Drain with 40% Skill recharge pretty much owns too, which I guess will be best in the end.

JR · Mar 10, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

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Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

MoR or Energy Drain.. Not sure. Energy Drain also works well with Skill recharge, MoR doesn't. Energy Drain with 40% Skill recharge pretty much owns too, which I guess will be best in the end.

There is absolutely no choice, in my opinion.

This metagame seems to have a very strong trend for Surge/Burn/SoW mesmers. MoR is weak very weak to E-denial. I will try and explain why.

A monk with a base energy of 48 dies. The monk gets ressed with a sig. Now he has 12 energy to spend.

- The monk who takes MoR spends 10 energy casting that, and is now on 2 energy. In 20 seconds time he will get a return. In 20 seconds it might be too late.

- The monk who took Energy Drain spends 5 energy casting that, and is now on 23 energy. All of a sudden he can throw out a few spells and ease things up.

(excluding energy regenerated naturally before the cast completed)

The same goes for edenial mesmers, but worse. A good dom mesmer will shatter/drain your MoR, then slam your energy bar down to 0. Obviously at this point you would have swapped down to your negative energy set. The monk with ED can switch up and gain 16 energy straight up. The monk with MoR just digs himself deeper by spending the 10 energy to cast it, and will be even more screwed on energy for 20 seconds.

Not to mention you can be messed up with enchant stripping, including CoPing to remove hexes when you may not actually want the energy from MoR yet. ED is a straight up energy gain like OoB. It's slightly conditional in that you need to find someone who will probably have energy to drain, but that really isn't difficult. They have an Ether Prod air ele? Theres your target. A Necro with OoB? Theres your target... And so on. Alternatively, you can make yourself offensively usefull by draining the opposing monks.

Hell, suppose you have two opposing monks, one with ED and one with MoR. If the one with ED can consistantly drain the opposing monk, then ED comes out very much on top. You will actually be getting more energy than the MoR monk, everything included. And you don't get the absolutely horrendous instability of it.

So basicly, MoR is weaksauce. The slightly increased energy gain in the statistics says very little about how it works in practice.

Zhou Feng · Mar 10, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

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Originally Posted by JR-

There is absolutely no choice, in my opinion.

This metagame seems to have a very strong trend for Surge/Burn/SoW mesmers. MoR is weak very weak to E-denial. I will try and explain why.

A monk with a base energy of 48 dies. The monk gets ressed with a sig. Now he has 12 energy to spend.

- The monk who takes MoR spends 10 energy casting that, and is now on 2 energy. In 20 seconds time he will get a return. In 20 seconds it might be too late.

- The monk who took Energy Drain spends 5 energy casting that, and is now on 23 energy. All of a sudden he can throw out a few spells and ease things up.

(excluding energy regenerated naturally before the cast completed)

The same goes for edenial mesmers, but worse. A good dom mesmer will shatter/drain your MoR, then slam your energy bar down to 0. Obviously at this point you would have swapped down to your negative energy set. The monk with ED can switch up and gain 16 energy straight up. The monk with MoR just digs himself deeper by spending the 10 energy to cast it, and will be even more screwed on energy for 20 seconds.

Not to mention you can be messed up with enchant stripping, including CoPing to remove hexes when you may not actually want the energy from MoR yet. ED is a straight up energy gain like OoB. It's slightly conditional in that you need to find someone who will probably have energy to drain, but that really isn't difficult. They have an Ether Prod air ele? Theres your target. A Necro with OoB? Theres your target... And so on. Alternatively, you can make yourself offensively usefull by draining the opposing monks.

Hell, suppose you have two opposing monks, one with ED and one with MoR. If the one with ED can consistantly drain the opposing monk, then ED comes out very much on top. You will actually be getting more energy than the MoR monk, everything included. And you don't get the absolutely horrendous instability of it.

So basicly, MoR is weaksauce. The slightly increased energy gain in the statistics says very little about how it works in practice.

The only real use of MoR is with CoP and usually with prot monks also running Channeling, Divine Boon and maybe Inspired Hex. Whichever the case MoR is very conditional compared to E Drain. So yeah I agree. Still E Drain's recharge is kind of slow so that about the only thing MoR has. But its cheaper. It can't be used fully offensively though because you only get a slight E Drain on target every 25 seconds.

JR · Mar 10, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

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Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

The only real use of MoR is with CoP

I honestly don't like the CoP/MoR combo. So you have an extra enchant to get benefit from? CoPing off your MoR also screws up your energy management. More trouble than it is worth. You should have more than enough enchantments as it is to remove stacks, especially with Holy Veil interacting so well with CoP.

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Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

and usually with prot monks also running Channeling,

Channeling is only decent in HA, not a skill I care about. When I talk about serious PvP, I mean GvG. I am probably biased, but what the hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

Divine Boon and maybe Inspired Hex. Whichever the case MoR is very conditional compared to E Drain. So yeah I agree. Still E Drain's recharge is kind of slow so that about the only thing MoR has. But its cheaper. It can't be used fully offensively though because you only get a slight E Drain on target every 25 seconds.

Don't forget you can run dual 20% recharge mods and benefit with ED, you can't with MoR.

Greedy Gus · Mar 10, 2006, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Basically, even after the update, the only place I would seriously consider putting P&H is on a fire-and-forget type support monk flag runner, who can keep it on himself and the other 2 monks. I wrote a GvG build right after the update that utilized this, though he also maintained blessed aura for 125 second P&H and also utilized other enchantments. It worked out ok but still probably not as effective as a fully effective flag runner in most builds.

Fenix Swiftblade · Mar 10, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

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